Cyan Bane's Hall Of Bouncing Souls: 08/01/2005

Brainstorm it:

I think that the situation in Iraq while horrible is seriously unavoidable at this point. Yes mistakes were made and yes, hindsight is 20/20. We're in a bad situation and I believe that we are doing the best we possibly can at this point. I sympathize with this mother over the loss of her son but what makes her different from the other few thousand that are dealing with the same loss. She has a right to make her voice heard but I think that she has taken it a bit too far. If we pull all troops now the region would fall into a turmoil that I don't think they would ever recover from. Just my .02, justin go ahead and rip on me.....

# posted by Donny : 8/29/2005 12:11:00 AM

I don�t follow the good general�s logic.

First he notes that the war was and is a mistake. But he believes that to correct this mistake we have to �create a stable, democratizing and peaceful state in Iraq.�

The plan he lays out makes little sense since the occupation is a destabilizing force. His recommendations for training up Iraqi forces are the same as what Bush has been calling for. The problem is that the US will not give Iraqi forces any large weapons because they are likely to be used against US troops. The paper that published Clark�s op-ed recently reported on this.

The problem is not that the administration �won�t adopt a winning strategy,� the problem is that there is no way to successfully implement the strategy. Clark�s plan is the same as Bush�s plan. But in a country that views the US invasion as an act of unwarranted aggression and the continued occupation an ongoing humiliation there is little hope for sustained cooperation.

Here is the solution that we need: Withdraw the US troops unconditionally. The ongoing peace keeping or humanitarian needs are to be handled by the UN. Hold war crimes trials for Bush and his men who led an illegal war.

PS
I just saw Donny�s comments: I don�t understand what he means that Cindy Sheehan has taken things to far. In a free society where you are free to do and say what you wish, what about her protest takes things too far?

The idea that our troops are holding the broader Middle East together from Iraq is not supported by reality. Other than saying it, I know of no fact based analysis that supports this view. The Iraqi occupation is destabilizing the region. It has become a terrorist training ground and is exporting terrorists to other countries. This is one of those rhetorical tricks that are used to continue our involvement.

For example, one of Bush�s big ideas was that a Democratic Iraq would lead to other democracies in the Middle East. Sort of like a domino theory for democracy. He argued that Iraq would inspire other people to rise up and overthrow the autocrats ruling over them in other countries. In other words, he hoped the Iraq war would destabilize the entire region. When it comes to arguing against withdrawal he and others switch tracks and claim the occupation is holding the broader region together.

# posted by Justin : 8/29/2005 08:36:00 AM

Please, enlighten us with how you expect the UN to step in and take over? Now I'm in agreement that Bush has started an illegal war and should be held accountable for it. I've never been for this war and would love nothing better than to see our troops come home. However, the reality is that we've started this thing and if we unconditionally pull out, Iraq is going to turn into an absolute freaking nightmare, orders of magnitude worse than it is today.

The solution is to poor more soldiers in. Rally our allies who are slowly pulling out. Take some of Haliburton's blood money and throw it to the Spanish and Italians in exchange for a stronger troop presence. If we keep dicking around with not enough troops, we're going to end up in 10 years with 20,000 dead troops, countless others injured for life, and an Iraq no better off than when Saddam was in power.

I just think it's easy to say "get out" without really thinking of what the world will look like with a true civil war in Iraq.

# posted by tj : 8/29/2005 11:50:00 AM

Sadly, what do you think Iraq will ultimately end up being after we provide "stability" through a drafted Constitution, Iraqi armed forced, etc.? A democracy? I mean, that's what we're there for, right? To help create a democratic state- provide democracy for Iraq.

Unfortunately, all that's happening is we are helping to generate another Islamic government in the Middle East. Any democracy with a "relgion" based form of government, no matter how small a role religion might play, is not a democracy. It never can be. If we "hold the course," this shitty attempt at a formation of a government we are trying to oversee will fall apart when we leave, most likely causing a civil war anyway.

On a side note, could you imagine if our government officials (reps/dems) were to try and draft a constitution for our government today? It would take longer than the Iraqi constitution that's being debated now.

# posted by Keith : 8/29/2005 02:01:00 PM

Good point. And think about it this way. We won our independence, drafted the Articles of Confederation, realized that shit didn't work, and only then (more than 10 years after we declared our independence) did we start writing our present constitution. These things take time.

# posted by tj : 8/29/2005 02:08:00 PM

You also go to remember that if we decided to draft a constitution today that partisan politics would slow it to a crawl, now try to imagine partisian religions. Some people may say say that political convictions are on the same level as religious beliefs, but seriously, try to bring 2 different religions (ok maybe branches of the same religion) together to try to create the constitution, then toss in some Kurdish ethnic group, and the fear of dying from multiple sets of people as you write it. Sounds like a great way to create a goverment. Makes me appreciate being an American so much more (Not sarcasm).

# posted by cyan : 8/29/2005 02:19:00 PM

Your Thoughts?